"I just felt like it was a no win situation"

In a revealing 2005 interview for his new band Grady, Gordie Johnson talks about some of the behind-the-scenes incidents that led to the end of Big Sugar and made him decide to turn his back on the Canadian music scene. You can read the entire interview at Classic Rock Revisited.

By Ryan Sparks (January 2005)

Sparks: For people that didn't get a chance to hear your previous band Big Sugar, you were quite successful in Canada but a lot of people probably didn't hear much of you in the States. With that band you were known to incorporate many different musical styles such as reggae and dub. Is it tough not to repeat something you may have already done with Big Sugar?

Johnson: Yeah, but I think this band is strictly more streamlined. It doesn't have 10 different flavors coming at you. It definitely got more refined in a way and by that I don't want it to sound like we've got everything all nice and spiffy and polished. It's still very crude and raw in its presentation.

Sparks: So it was a case of keeping things a little more basic?

Johnson: Well to tell you the truth, for me the key for us to have a sincere, heartfelt musical presentation is to not think about it too much (laughs). To tell you the truth I haven't really thought about it a whole bunch, I wasn't trying to do too much. I just plugged in my guitar with two different guys and off we went. It ended up sounding like something you could analyze after the fact but it wasn't like months of careful planning or a lot of dissection went into it before we started.

Sparks: Whereas more planning went into Big Sugar, so it's different in that sense?

Johnson: No, but Big Sugar had different elements just given the membership of the band and the things that we could do naturally. Reggae and dub came pretty naturally to Big Sugar just because of the people in the band and the common taste in music that we had between us. We had to paint from a palate of colors that we actually possessed and it's the same thing with this band. The record collection that the three of us have in common is very different from what the guys in Big Sugar had.

Sparks: How did Grady come about, you've known Chris Layton for awhile haven't you?

Johnson: Yeah I've known him for about 10 or 12 years. I met him when Big Sugar was just starting out and one of our first gigs was with his band The Arc Angels, so I've known him for years and I've been coming down to Texas for years, I'd come down here and play some music just for my own health you know? Our bass player Big Ben played in Big Sugar for a short time in '94 just after 500 Pounds came out, he's played with me over the years in various different capacities and he was the front of house sound engineer for Big Sugar for years. In fact, musically we've always been really tight.

At the end of 2003 I asked him "Hey man, what are you doing next year" and he said "I don't know, what do you want to do?" and I told him "Let's move down to Texas, let's go play a bunch of one chord jams and just kick it out". I wanted to start from scratch, I wanted to come someplace where I wasn't known and there was no preconceived notion of what I'm supposed to do and that's part of why Big Sugar came to an end too. [Big Sugar] was always fresh and exciting; every album was something new and different. A little bit different not because there were any pressures, but just because that's how we were feeling it. By the last record there was a lot of people standing around with their fingers in the pie, peeking into the kitchen saying it needs to be more like this or it's not good for radio and stuff like that, just different opinions being chimed in everywhere and I just felt like it was a no win situation anymore.

The music fans were very supportive, but the Canadian music industry was kind of like... All of a sudden there were all these musical experts standing around. No one had anything to do with it up to that point so why all of a sudden is your opinion so valuable to me? So I came down here to start completely from scratch and just see how people would accept this new music at face value and so far it's been going very well for us.

Sparks: The CD features about five Big Sugar songs so you haven't completely left your past behind though have you?

Johnson: Yeah, as far as Big Sugar went those were songs that never really got mined that deeply, songs that maybe we played once or twice in concert or songs that evolved into something completely different from the way they originated because they were played by a certain band you know? The version of "Joe Louis" is completely different because the Big Sugar version would go on forever and the Grady version is more like how I would have originally conceived it sitting on a kitchen chair playing a banjo. It goes back to the original root idea of what we were doing and again people here don't know Big Sugar so there's no preconceived notion of what it's supposed to be so why should I just leave everything I've done before in the trash? It was really good that people here didn't get to hear it. There my songs so I'll play 'em if I want to (laughs).

Sparks: How does the creative process work when it comes to the songwriting for Grady?

Johnson: Well I sit down with my banjo and I write a song and then we plug it in and crank it up. If we have to really try to arrange the thing and rehearse it then it probably doesn't fit the spiritual mission statement of the band. With Big Sugar there were five or six guys in the band depending on the night and things became very arranged where you're depending on each guy to perform a certain task whereas in Grady there is Chris on drums and Big Ben on bass and myself so there's not a lot that can go wrong. Big Sugar got to be this high performance race car where the steering was real touchy whereas Grady is just like, quarter mile, stomp on the gas and hold on for dear life! (laughs)

Sparks: Was it different getting used to life in the States and why did you specifically pick Austin as your home base?

Johnson: Just because I was familiar with the place, I've been coming here for ages and it's a very music orientated place. There's not a real big music industry here but everyone likes music and everyone's in a band and you can see live music every night. There's a very nurturing attitude towards music whereas I felt like Toronto was becoming a cannibalistic music industry type of place. Everybody was trying to see what they could get off of you; they would be your friend if they thought they could get something off of you. It was a lot of wheeling and dealing, I mean that's great, that is how the wheel of commerce spins. I just wanted to come somewhere where I could think about just music and playing music all the time. Hell, the weather is nice all year; I'm standing outside talking to you and feeling okay about it (laughs). It wasn't much of an adjustment. I grew up in a border city so I grew up with American television and radio and American culture.

Sparks: I was going to say, growing up in Windsor across the river from Detroit; you must have been directly influenced by the music that was coming from across the river.

Johnson: Of course. There was only one Canadian TV station and one Canadian radio station. It was all Detroit, so to me I didn't really notice that there was a difference between Americans and Canadians until I moved to Toronto and I said "What the hell is a Juno award?" I was in my twenties before I had even heard of it; I didn't know any of the bands. I had no idea there were all these Canadian bands, I just didn't know where I grew up. So down here in Texas nobody busts me for having a Canadian accent because I've never had one. I don't say "out and aboot" or "eh" (laughs).

Sparks: Looking back on Big Sugar, what are you most proud of?

Johnson: I'd say just that we played some really weird music; at no time was it ever in fashion. We were never part of a trend; we were never part of a scene with five or six other bands that sounded like us. We were never affiliated with a time or an era; we just played the music that we played at the time just because it was good. We put out a dub record just ‘cause we felt like it, we played three hour shows just ‘cause we felt like it. I had a panel of experts tell me this was the wrong thing to do.

Sparks: It wasn't like that right from the beginning though was it?

Johnson: Yeah of course it was, right from the get go. I had radio programmers look me in the face and tell me that they would never play a Big Sugar song. They told me "You can do an interview with us to promote your show because a beer company is sponsoring it and the record company is making us do this but we will never play Big Sugar". Fast forward two more years to when we have a number one single and everyone is playing our song, suddenly everyone wants to bring their girlfriend backstage... And you know what? I don't hold a grudge. I'm like "Now you like Big Sugar? That's cool, come on in".

I'm not going to hold a grudge and be all fucked up about that kind of stuff but it did stick in my mind every time someone in the community would tell me I was making the wrong move. I mean the people stood up and voted and said "No this is the right move". I would start the show with the number one single, I'm not going to make people wait ninety minutes to pay to come and hear the song they want to hear. People at the record label would be pulling their hair out saying "No, please don't do that".

The people rewarded us with their loyalty and they said "If you come to play Edmonton five times a year we will come and sell out your show" and the record people would say "Don't play there five times a year, you can't do that". So I can't do that? For twelve years that's what I did, fuck you (laughs). I look back at that and say you know what? The proof is right there in front of you, is the audience happy? If they are then everything else can go to hell.

Sparks: What really sucks is this happened in your home country, you weren't completely accepted and you wonder why a lot of Canadian bands cannot crack the US market when they're not even accepted in their own country.

Johnson: I think a lot of what we were doing musically was kind of on the middle of the fence. The Americans like to have things more streamlined, they like to be able to put their finger right on something. Things have to be very compartmentalized, I'm not saying its right or wrong, that's just the way it is.

Big Sugar never really had anybody champion our cause here in America. We never had someone tell us "Yeah man, this will work across all these different formats". We would have nineteen year old girls and forty year old motorcycle enthusiasts at our shows and people in the industry couldn't find a way to make that sound like a good thing. I get people come down to the shows here asking me to autograph copies of Heated and I'm surprised at how many people have heard of Big Sugar. It's cool. I'm proud of it.

Sparks: You're still in touch with the others from Big Sugar and you're producing the Truths and Rights album for Garry (Lowe) and Mojah. How's that coming along?

Johnson: Good! I look forward to seeing all the guys doing their own thing. It's been coming along slowly for all of them but I wish they'd step up the pace a bit because I think the public would enjoy hearing it. They just need to get out and actually do it.

Sparks: What about Kelly (Hoppe), he's still gigging with his band Train 45 isn't he?

Johnson: Yeah he's still playing quite a bit actually; I talk to him on the phone weekly. We were friends even before Big Sugar.

Sparks: Would you say the door is closed for good on Big Sugar or would you never say never?

Johnson: I would never say never, but it has to come from a sincere desire to play that music in that way again. For me now it would be kind of retrograde because we've done it already. I don't want to redo things, I just want to do things. I mean Big Sugar will play again if we feel like it, but right now we're all doing different things. I mean, we've already been offered sick amounts of money to come back and do just one show or one private thing. I don't need the money; I've never needed the money. I've been playing music and supporting myself since I was a fourteen year old kid.

Sparks: Last question, did you bring your 1970 Dodge Charger down with you to Texas?

Johnson: No she's real lonely now; she's back on the farm in Alberta. That's a ride that I need down here, I can drive it all year. As soon as the weather clears up north I'm gonna drive it down. It's a great way to see the country; I'd love to do that.

Sparks: Get a big stretch of highway and a lot of gasoline.

Johnson: There you go. Yeah man! (Laughs)

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